5 point Calvinism: What I learned today

Well, I have to admit that God reminded me how good He is today. Also, how good He has been to me in the friends that I have. WM and JP both took the time to reply to my last post.

...and I was forcefully reminded that this whole exercise is kind of pointless. Not fully, but enough that I'm not going to bother with the last point of Calvinism. Here is why:

My posts would have to be SOOOOO long just to make sure I cover all the ways that the point can be defined. Traditional Calvinism is what I was mostly basing these posts on, but there are more "modern" views...although it's hard to call it Calvinism because the terms are defined VERY differently from what it was before. In fact, as I mentioned on my Facebook post, the definitions that my friend gave would be better termed as a Baptist-ized Calvinism....which really isn't Calvinism to me, but that is just my opinion.

Which means that there is no way I can do a fair justice to these topics at all. I don't want that. I understand that it is a controversial topic, but it can only be made more controversial by not presenting all sides enough.

Two quick things though.

1. Traditional Calvinism will have the 5th point as "Perseverance of the Saints" which, in my view, removes eternal salvation. I have heard some modern Calvinist-Baptists use the P as Preservation instead of Perseverance. This changes it from man-centered to God-centered which is a good change.

2. There were a couple comments on one of my posts about how justification and faith might be simultaneous. I said I didn't agree and I wanted to quickly just touch on a single verse for this. Romans 5:1. The ESV says "...Since we have been justified by faith..." The Greek word here ek and it literally means "out of" or "from." I don't see this as being able to be simultaneous since this verse, at least, puts faith as what justification comes out of.

I hope this made sense to everyone. Feel free to leave comments as usual. I love to get feedback. That's how Iron sharpens Iron!

To God be the glory!

5 point Calvinism: Irresistible Grace

As I mentioned in my last post, this is my 2nd least favorite point of the 5-point Calvinists. My least favorite is Limited Atonement. I think it flies in the face of Scripture more than the rest. However, this one is a close 2nd for me.

Irresistible grace is the idea that God chooses the elect, and, as God, He has enough power to save them...even against their will. There is nothing they can do to be chosen as the elect and there is nothing they can do to NOT be chosen as the elect. I know that we are anti-will kind of people. If it has to do with my will, then it's all about me! Right?

The first problem is that if God did this, why would He only choose some? Yes, He is all-just, I get it. But if He chose to apply salvation this way, by force, why would He only force some and not everyone? From last time: He could force everyone to get out of the pond instead of letting some people die.

Here is the analogy that was given that helped me articulate my problem with this doctrine.

A man is in love. He goes to the woman and say, "I love you. I love you so much, I want you to marry me." She says, "You are a nice guy and I enjoy your company, but I don't want to marry you." He thinks and then, after a pause, he says, "but I love you SO much. I really, really want you to marry me. Please marry me." To which she replies, "Listen. You asked once and I told you then that I didn't want to marry you. I am telling you again...I will NOT marry you." Finally, the man says, "I love you so much.., I am going to FORCE you to love me."  ...what?

See. When put that way, no one will like it. But, when we apply it to our Creator and God, the Calvinist says this is OK. An all-knowing, all-loving, all-just, all-powerful God...and He will force us to believe in Him if we would not believe otherwise....really??

Now, I will be fair and say that any Calvinist (4-point or 5-point) that I've ever talked to will soften this by saying, "Yes, but God will make you want to by changing your desires so it won't be forced because you will want to."

....that's a cheap answer as far as I'm concerned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a backlash to the fear of looking like they believe in works-based salvation. they have such a fear of "Well, I believed and that is why God saved me..which makes me awesome in my own right because of what I did."

Let me put that to rest. We don't have the faith to believe without God giving it to us. It's like the analogy of the pond in my last post. We would all drown without God intervening in our lives. However, what I don't believe is that he not only chooses who will not drown (thereby choosing who will be left to drown) but he also doesn't then force them to take the rope and get out of the water. He allows us to choose.

OK. enough from me. let's look at 3 verses.

Acts 7:51: we can resist the grace of God.

Matt 23:37 - Jesus is crying out to Jerusalem and say that He often wanted to gather them to Himself...but they were not willing. So, the Calvinist says that God did not elect them and force them to His salvation...then why is Christ mourning over their unwillingness to come to Him?

2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Now, we don't believe in Universalism (the idea that EVERYONE will go to heaven because God is love and He would never send someone to hell). So, either Peter lied (and God lied through Peter) when he said that God was not willing that any should perish, or the Calvinist limits the power of God that He is only able to save some. Because, if He can force anyone to believe...but He doesn't force everyone, then 2 Peter 3:9 is wrong.

Remember my caveat. I am very opinionated about this, but it doesn't make me right or wrong. This isn't a black and white issue or it wouldn't still be an issue hundreds of years later.

To GOD be the glory in all of this!

5 point Calvinism: Limited Atonement

Here is one of my least favorite points of 5-point Calvinism. I have often struggled to articulate why, but Norman Geisler presented a word-picture that really helped.

Also, if I understand correctly, most Protestants who consider themselves 4-point Calvinists will reject this point specifically.

Limited Atonement is the doctrine that Jesus Christ died for the elect. So, the atonement that Christ's death paid for was limited and it was limited only to those who are elect.

While my initial thoughts would be fine, I'd actually like to start with the word-picture I eluded to above. Obviously no word picture is perfect, but it helps to illustrate one of my problems with this doctrine.

There was a farmer who own some land. On that land was a lake. Next to that the farmer put a sign that read, "Do not swim in lake. Will cause drowning." One day, as the farmer came by the lake he saw three people in it and they were all drowning. The farmer then stood next to the lake, crossed his arms, and said, "See. That's what the sign is for. Now you are all going to drown."

That's pretty harsh! Now, is it just? Absolutely. There was a sign, they disobeyed the sign, and they are suffering the consequences. All just, but no love at all.

the 5-point Calvinist then expands the story. As the farmer comes up to the lake and sees three people drowning, he calls out, "You. In the brown shirt" and he throws that one person a rope. That person then is able to be pulled out and the other two drown and die.

Again, all just, but not all loving.

So, another version would go like this. The farmer comes to the lake, sees three people drowning, and throws three ropes; one to each person. Then, one person, believing the rope will help, accepts the help and the farmer pulls them out. The other two, saying "I can do this on my own" refuse the rope, drown, and die.

Same result. Only one person is saved. however, this represents both justice (drowning if you refuse the help) and love (help offered to all.)

John 3:16 tells us that God loved the whole world. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance. Romans 5:6 says that in due time, Christ died for the ungodly. It doesn't say He died for some of the ungodly. The last time I checked...we are all ungodly! Even more compelling is 2 Cor 5:14 which says that Christ died for ALL. The ONLY way you can see this as limited atonement is to add to Scripture and say that Paul meant that Christ died for all of the elect. However, I don't know how you do that without reading into Scripture instead of just reading it for what it says. Last, 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Here we see that God desires that all people be saved that and Christ died for all. I don't know how to do this more plainly. I find the doctrine of Limited Atonement to be a very anti-Biblical doctrine.

Again, I welcome thoughts and comments. Both in agreement and in opposition. I don't claim to be perfect and if this was a cut and dry issue, it wouldn't still be an issue hundreds of years later.

By the way, the next one is my 2nd least favorite point of 5-point Calvinism so stay tuned and we will talk about Irresistible Grace.

To GOD be the glory.

5 point Calvinism: Unconditional Election

Let's start with a definition that I found online: Unconditional Election is God's free choice before creation, not based on foreseen faith, to which traitors He will grant faith and repentance, pardoning them, and adopting them into His everlasting family of joy.

This point of the 5 points is really very important...and yet it is going to be touched in the other 3 as well, so this will be a short post.

This is the doctrine of pre-destination. To put it in layman's terms, God decided, before time began, who would be saved from eternal damnation. This has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with what you will or could ever do. It is 100% God who chooses who will be saved and who will be left in their condemnation and sent to Hell.    

...and there you have one of my problems with predestination as the Calvinists believe. They will argue (and I have had this discussion many times) that this is NOT double predestination (that God chooses who will be saved AND who will be condemned) but it really is. While they are right that a just God could do this, a loving God wouldn't. Now, don't hate me for that one if you disagree. I'll touch on it more in the next post.

The other problem is that you really have no eternal salvation. Be honest. If God has elected those who will be saved, and you can't do a thing about it, then can you REALLY know that you are one of the elect? Now, I will touch this more in point 5, but let me share this quote from DesiringGod.com (John Piper's website): "There were no qualifications for being chosen. "When then should I do?" he asks. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31. That's how you begin to "confirm your calling and election" (2 Pet 1:10). If you will embrace the Savior, you will confirm that you are elect, and you will be saved.

Again, I love hearing John Piper's sermons. He has had a great ministry and I have learned a lot from his teachings. However, what if, later in life, I backslide. What if I truly believed....but now I don't know if I was elect or not....oh. Sorry. That's point 5. I'll get there.

Just one more note. DO NOT hear me as diminishing the sovereignty of God in any of this. To be honest, I think the Calvinist limits the sovereignty of God...but that's another conversation for another time.

Again, I have several issues with this doctrine, but they will come out more clearly as we discuss the last 3 points. Limited Atonement, irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

To GOD be the glory!!! Great things He has done!

5 point Calvinism: Total Depravity

We begin with the first point of Calvinism: Total Depravity.

The idea behind this point is that man is so depraved that he can't even understand the Gospel. Man, in his sinful state, cannot receive the gospel. He is a spiritual corpse. One verse that is used is Ephesians 2:1. Which clearly states that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Verse 5 goes on to say that God made us alive. There is clear imagery here of death and life.

I have many times heard it said that we were a dead corpse, spiritually. That is,spiritually, we are unable to see, hear, understand, or believe. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is used here.

Part of the imagery here is that, because we are completely spiritually dead, God has to make us alive before we can be saved. We can't possibly be saved while being spiritually dead. Therefore, it is supposed, we must be made alive (by God) so that we are capable of believing. Faith comes after salvation, rather than faith being a means of salvation.

Does the Bible support that notion though? I would contend that it does not!

First, let's look at the context in Ephesians 2. While you could read the first view verses to give you the idea that we are completely dead and God gives us spiritual life...what about verse 8? ...saved through faith. Because we see "saved through faith" it means the faith comes first and the salvation 2nd. That is in opposition to the way that 5-point Calvinists explain Total Depravity.

Another is Romans 5:1. Here we are justified by faith. We don't get faith through our justification, rather we get justified through/by faith. Again, this is backwards to the view of Total Depravity.

Acts 6:31. When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved, Paul told him to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." He didn't say, "Well, as soon as God regenerates you and makes your dead corpse alive, you can believe on him because you are already regenerated and, therefore, saved." Now, I'm being a little sarcastic here, but the point is the same.

The New Testament is FULL of examples of believing in order to receive salvation, not receiving salvation in order to believe.

So, IF the Bible does not support the "Spiritual corpse" belief, then what do we do with passages like Ephesians that talk about how we were dead in our trespasses and sins until God gave us life? First, we remember that "dead" can have two meanings. Either "annihilation" (dead corpse) or "separation." In the Bible, dead is used to mean separation. Look at all the passages that talk about going to be with the Lord, or our body and soul separating (absent with the body is present with the Lord). Yet, the doctrine of Total Depravity really takes an "annihilation" view toward our spiritual "death" instead of the standard "separation" view of Scripture.

I could also touch on Dr. Geisler's point about the image of God and that we are made in the image and God and able to understand His grace, but I think I've hit this point enough for our purposes.

I'd love your (calm and rational) thoughts if you'd like to share. This is an open discussion. Again, I remind you that I think that good, Godly people are on both sides of this debate, I simply fall on a particular side myself! :o)

To GOD be the glory!

5 point Calvinism: Introduction

On the outset, I realize that this may be controversial. If you have any comments you'd like to share, you are welcome too. I'll take private messages, comments here, or comments from Facebook.

I am taking my notes on all 5 of these from a sermon I have listened to a couple times by Dr. Norman Geisler. I want all of the credit to go to him for the thoughts. Some of this is new to me and much of it is just a better articulation of thoughts I've been trying to wrestle through. Thanks for your patience!

Just a little background. The 5 points of Calvinism are mostly about free will and God's sovereignty. They are an attempt to understand how God is sovereign and yet man has free will.

I have for many months had problems with the 5 points of Calvinism. Not all of them necessarily, but definitely some of them. For example, looked at to their full conclusion, they don't seem like the way a loving God would work. Now, don't hear me wrong. I know that God is just and I fully understand that, however, I also know that God is love and the explanations I have received from multiple sources have just never sat well with me.

I accidentally stumbled on to this message by Dr. Geisler (I was searching "How to witness to Catholics") and it has been a huge help for me and articulating some of my concerns.

I am NOT a 5 point Calvinist. I never have been and never will be. So that is where I am coming from. Dr. Geisler is also NOT a 5 point Calvinist. In fact, he uses this sermon to go through the reasons that he things ALL 5 points are in fact wrong. I'll leave it to you to agree or not, but I wanted you to know where each of us was coming from.

I want to point out what Dr. Geisler pointed out, which is that this is an inter-denominational debate. There are good and Godly men and women on both sides of this issue. So don't hear me condemning anyone...no matter how strongly I agree or disagree with any given points. :o)

Lastly, here are the five points that I will touch on over the course of my next 5 posts. The terms may be foreign or confusing to you. That's OK. I'm going to explain each one as I do the post for that point.

Total Depravity, Unconditional election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and perseverance of the Saints.

When I am afraid, I will trust in me!

Do you remember the question I asked here? Where I talked about wanting things for my family and being afraid of what God might want me to do?

Right, well, it has been 2 weeks since that post. Yesterday we had a special speaker at church and he was used by God to hit me right in the heart. He preached through Psalm 56. The whole sermon was really fantastic. However, a couple things really struck me.

1. There are two major references to rejoicing in God's Word. In verses 4 and 10 it talks about God, "whose word I praise."

My first slam to the heart is, when I am having these struggles...I don't praise God's Word. I know it is there, but I don't spend time in it and loving it or the God who gave it to us.

2. Verse 8 has a reference to putting our tears in God's bottle. Our speaker pointed out that when milk spoils, you throw it out. When you have some precious, however, you put it in a bottle. (Ointment, perfume, etc.) To know that my tears are precious to God is amazing.

The second thing then was that I needed to be reminded that for all my frustrations and, yes, tears...God still cares. Even when I am turning my face from Him. Because I am His child, He still loves me and He still cares about my tears!

3. In verses 3, 4, and 11 David (the author of this Psalm) talks about trusting God and not being afraid. Our speaker used a great word-picture. He talked about being a child and getting his first allowance. He got $1 a week. He remembers thinking he was pretty big stuff when he started getting this. He then talked about what it would be like if he had gone to his parents with something like this. "Mom and Dad. I really appreciate everything you've done for me, but now that I have this $1 a week allowance, I don't need you anymore. I'm going to be completely dependent from you as this is what I needed."   ...if you aren't smiling (or laughing) right now...then go back and re-read that again. It's ridiculous. His dad would then need to sit him down and talk about: rent, food costs, clothing costs, insurance, etc, etc.     ....not to mention that he is STILL depending on them to KEEP getting $1 a week.

What struck me is that I wanted to do the same thing. "God, you've given me a love of history, a family that I adore, and friends and family to support me. I appreciate all that you've done, but I want independence from you now. I'm going to do things my own way." It sounds lame....yet that is the desire and temptation in my heart at times.

Everything I have is from God.
God sustains me so that I keep everything I have.
Everything I will EVER have will be from God.

It isn't just a past tense thing. We can't just hope to attain a moment where we have enough to be self-sufficient and no longer need God. It is past tense, present tense, and future tense. In every direction of time (backward, here now, and forward) I need God in my life. I know that God doesn't want me to be miserable and that He wants what is best for my family. Yet, I am afraid sometimes what "best" means. So, when I am afraid, I can trust in me....or I can trust in God. As choices go, this seems obvious to me!

Who else is my neighbor?

This was just an ironic thought I had today. I got home from work and was spending a few minutes on my computer before dinner. My wife came upstairs to say that we had a strange request from the neighbor boys. The youngest (5) and the oldest (17?) were asking for a ride to an elementary school near us. She was working on dinner and wanted to know if I was willing to give them a ride.

Sure...no problem.

After I took them and was heading home I had the thought "who is my neighbor?" pop into my head. It was kind of ironic. In my thinking about who my neighbor is in the last last while I have been focusing on people who need help but who don't physically live as our "neighbor."

...and I almost forgot out the neighbors who actually DO live on my street.

Praise God for reminders that all the people I see are my neighbors and people I need to love .Whether it is convenient or not is irrelevant.


To God be the glory!

Fighting the Holy Spirit

What do you do when you read a passage of Scripture and you go "uh oh!"?

What do you do when the Holy Spirit has helped you identify a problem and you baulk at having to go through with it? What do you do?

What do you do when you can't bring yourself to read your Bible or pray deeply and meaningfully because you know there is an issue you are not facing?

"Well Nate, then you get over yourself and deal with the sin!!! Obviously."

To that, I say, "Is it really obvious?" What if it's your family? What if it is the dreams you have for your children? What if you are aware of the fact that giving those things to God doesn't mean that you will have to give them up, but that you are aware that you may have to give them up?

We know better, right? We are good Christians who have it all together, right? Well, maybe we don't have it ALL together. However, we KNOW that we are responsible for what we know, right? So, we know that idolatry is wrong, that the Holy Spirit wants to help us grow and mature in our Christian life, and that God always (ALWAYS) wants what is best for us. Which means that if it is different than what we want...it will be better...right?

What if I want my children to grow up with a yard, and room to grow and play, and be able to go to dance/gymnastics/whatever? What IF that's not what God wants and I'm scared to let the ideas go? What if I'm so scared to do it that I am paralyzed in spiritual life/walk and don't know how to get through it? ....well, I do know how to get through but I don't know if I can/will. What then?

Who is my neighbor?

Thinking about freedom of religion and where my citizenship really is has gotten me thinking.

...then I watched a baby being pulled out of rubble last night. Buried and, after a couple days, still breathing and alive.

...and I got to thinking, who is my neighbor? The New Testament is littered with "love your neighbor" passages. Then, in Luke 10 we see some hotshot lawyer asking Christ who his neighbor really is. So, Jesus provides us with the parable of the good Samaritan. A parable that many are familiar with. In fact, we even have "good Samaritan" laws and those are not named coincidentally.

We have a man being robbed, beaten, and left for dead. We have a priest and a Levite (who were of the priestly line) both seeing him and quickly moving on. Then we have a Samaritan. A man who is culturally different. Who is usually despised by Jews. Who in NO way needed to feel any obligation to help this man. Yet he did anyway.

What is Jesus' point? When we talk about "love your neighbor" we are not talking about the people who live next to you. In fact, one could argue that it is anyone that you see who is in need. I am not naive. I know how hard that can be in our day and age. It's hard to know if the guy on the street needs money for food and to get home or to go waste it. I hate having to make that judgment but dishonesty of some has created a problem for many. At the same time, I hear of earthquakes half-way around the world and I wonder what we can do to help our neighbor.

I also wonder what religious freedom has to do with loving ones neighbor. I then answer that wondering with a resounding "Nothing!" It is simply irrelevant. Remember that Christianity wasn't even a legal religion until the 4th century when Constantine made it so. Christians were always the persecuted underdogs. That did not invalidate the commands of the Bible or the command to love ones neighbor.

No law that the United States can pass will ever remove the "love your neighbor..." commands. They will not just apply to Christians and you might even say that they specifically don't apply to Christians. That man on the road was not a Samaritan, but the Samaritan was a neighbor to him. May God give us the strength to be the same.

To God be the glory.